Interface Zero: Upgrade in Progress

Allting som har med gammalt hederligt pappersrollspel att göra.
nDervish
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Re: Interface Zero: Upgrade in Progress

Inlägg av nDervish »

God45 skrev:Hey guys, how did it go yesterday? Did you capture Golem boy? :)
jeronimooo has posted his summary of how things went:
http://www.obsidianportal.com/campaign/ ... missionary

To fill in the names and setting info from the original mission briefing:
  • The Untari missionary shot down on April 22 near GYY was one Mennac Hamuy, who was returning to Africa with his wife, Amina.
  • Mennac was the nephew of Firmus Hamuy, the director of Alat Petroleum's year-old Chicago facility.
  • The Untari are a cyber-cult, pursuing the technological Singularity and looking forward to the day that they can shed their bodies and become beings of pure information.
Overall, not a lot happened. We got off to a slow start, due to bringing in new characters and getting everyone up to speed on some new entities in the game world. And we also quit a bit earlier than usual (around 20:45) when Mal's injuries forced a mission abort. It pretty much just came down to getting everyone together (including the process of deciding how Mal knew anyone), doing a drone flyover of Mennac's crash site, driving into the Gary Hellzone, getting ambushed at a ganger roadblock, and then rushing Mal to the hospital, where he spent 8 days recovering from his injuries. Also, the actual combat against the gangers seemed to me like it ran very slowly (I didn't time it; that's just a subjective impression), but I can't say what exactly would have been slowing it down.
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jeronimooo

Re: Interface Zero: Upgrade in Progress

Inlägg av jeronimooo »

It did run slowly indeed, maybe the difficulty was a bit high given we were one men short compared to last week, Mal can't replace both Ryder's fire power and Paladin's knockout power... I am also quite sure that Paladin would've convinced those gangers to not only escort us to the crash site, but also to act as security force for us whilst we were there...

I think it also was terrible rolling on our part, combined with a few wrong? choices... Bullseye had to hit 3 or even 4 times before doing any actual damage, and Donut rushing in and going melee with his baton probably wasn't the right choice either. Combine that with my terrible shooting rolls (despite being quite good at shooting) and there you have it... Maybe we should've just driven the car trough and over the roadblock, not sure though...
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Re: Interface Zero: Upgrade in Progress

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jeronimooo skrev:It did run slowly indeed, maybe the difficulty was a bit high given we were one men short compared to last week, Mal can't replace both Ryder's fire power and Paladin's knockout power... I am also quite sure that Paladin would've convinced those gangers to not only escort us to the crash site, but also to act as security force for us whilst we were there...
Sounds like a proper old-school clusterfuck! :D

I just want to say that I very much don't want balanced encounters. I am pretty sure Dave has no intention of balancing the game like that but it's important enough to me to state anyways. Charging the roadblock seems to have been a poor tactical decision...

The problem is pretty obvious - from your reports in any case - you got ambushed. Not much point in scouting if you don't have notice. I also like how Donut took the time to loot bodies before rushing Mal to the ER.
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The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.
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Re: Interface Zero: Upgrade in Progress

Inlägg av Willard »

Yeah, we talked about this last night and we all just fell back into the old "let's just go and hope for the best"-mentality that's so well rooted in everyone. Not trying to blame anyone in particular, we all did it.

We did scout with an improved drone, which actually had notice d8 (and my wild die), just rolled really badly there too. Still, holding back people as reinforcements is probably a good idea when you're going in blind. Both things I could solve with more drones, but that's probably going to feel a lame for the rest of you guys.

The difficulty I don't think was high or uncalled for, and I don't think is slowed us down very much either. It was just a combination of rolling poorly and forgetting about the scope bonus. My drone shot down four of the ten gangers as it was, and would have nailed at least another two right at the beginning if we had accounted for the scope earlier.

Mal going down also had more to do with bad luck than difficult enemies, the chum just rolled a solid hit and the damage exploded. One more point of damage or AP and Mal would have died instantly. It's this gritty combat we talked about going into the campaign, all it takes is one bullet.

The pacing was probably a combination of rolling too slowly and rolling really badly when it counted. In the heat of combat it would be cool if everyone could be ready and done in their six seconds or whatever the round represents, so we feel some of the stress and get through the encounter more quickly. Unless we go through with the more vivid descriptions Björn asked for after last game, of course, but those seem more appropriate out of combat anyway.
nDervish
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Re: Interface Zero: Upgrade in Progress

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jeronimooo skrev:I am also quite sure that Paladin would've convinced those gangers to not only escort us to the crash site, but also to act as security force for us whilst we were there...
In exchange for your vehicle and other valuables? Yeah, probably. Definitely not for free, though.

My guiding light on that sort of thing is this post by Clint, which uses almost exactly the same situation as his example:
http://www.peginc.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 160#267160

To walk away from a robbery without a fight or handing over your valuables, you need something that will change their goal from "take their money" to something else and Persuasion skill alone won't do that.
jeronimooo skrev:I think it also was terrible rolling on our part,
True, the dice did hate you last night. Aside from Bullseye having to land 4 hits before he even rolled enough damage to Shake an average-stats ganger in light armor (getting 7+ on d10+d6 should not be that hard!), I kept rolling 13s and 14s on a d6 to resist your initial attempts at using social skills to avoid a fight.
jeronimooo skrev:Maybe we should've just driven the car trough and over the roadblock, not sure though...
It would have been interesting to see how that turned out, at least... I'm not sure whether the truck or the roadblock would have fallen apart first.
bladerunner_35 skrev: Sounds like a proper old-school clusterfuck! :D
Give it a few more weeks, and I'm sure we can arrange a proper TPK. :twisted:
Willard skrev: We did scout with an improved drone, which actually had notice d8 (and my wild die), just rolled really badly there too.
Actually, that's something else that slowed things down a bit: We kept coming up with details like "If I roll the drone's Notice skill instead of my own, does it get a wild die?" that none of us had considered previously. (And, for the record, I ended up ruling that, no, it doesn't. Whether you roll a wild die is determined by whether the "owner" of the skill is a wild card or not. The drone isn't a wild card, so it's skills don't get a wild die, even if there's a PC supervising it.)
Willard skrev: Still, holding back people as reinforcements is probably a good idea when you're going in blind. Both things I could solve with more drones, but that's probably going to feel a lame for the rest of you guys.
Although none have come up yet, there will be situations such as interference/jamming and combat hackers that will mitigate the effectiveness of drones, possibly taking them out of the picture entirely or even turning them into a liability. So there is also an in-game reason for not just doing everything with a drone army, aside from how the other players might feel about it.
Willard skrev: Mal going down also had more to do with bad luck than difficult enemies, the chum just rolled a solid hit and the damage exploded. One more point of damage or AP and Mal would have died instantly. It's this gritty combat we talked about going into the campaign, all it takes is one bullet.
True, that too. I don't recall what the initial hit roll was, other than that he got a raise, then he scored 25 damage (on 2d8+d6) with AP 2 vs. Toughness 5, 7 Armor, for a net 15 damage. Like Willard said, one more point and it would have been a one-shot Incap (and an extra +4 on the punk's Glory roll in Hellfrost :D ).
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jeronimooo

Re: Interface Zero: Upgrade in Progress

Inlägg av jeronimooo »

We talked about it indeed, and yes we got ambushed due to partywide poor notice rolls. Keeping some men back for backup wouldn't have helped, we would have ended up in the same situation anyways, and we were just screwed by bad rolls... I think Donut's charge and going melee was a bad choice, he could ve equally well stayed in or around the car and started firing right away... I don't think we actually rolled to slowly, it's just that the combat lasted for more rounds due to us rolling so poorly and not taking out enough opponents per round... Had we rolled better, we could ve killed 6 or 7 in 2 or 3 rounds, making the others run, and we could have cleared the roadblock and went on...
jeronimooo

Re: Interface Zero: Upgrade in Progress

Inlägg av jeronimooo »

Hey Dave,

I just noticed that you did not specify at all what we looted from the corpses...
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Re: Interface Zero: Upgrade in Progress

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jeronimooo skrev:We talked about it indeed, and yes we got ambushed due to partywide poor notice rolls. Keeping some men back for backup wouldn't have helped, we would have ended up in the same situation anyways, and we were just screwed by bad rolls...
Or you could have given them something. Or kept a sniper on a roof. Or...

I weren't there so won't point anymore fingers. Let's just agree to not blame (or praise) the dice. ;)
"There is nothing else. Existence is random, has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it to long."

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.
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Re: Interface Zero: Upgrade in Progress

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jeronimooo skrev:Keeping some men back for backup wouldn't have helped, we would have ended up in the same situation anyways, and we were just screwed by bad rolls...
This is all speculation of course, but the scenario I imagine is Mal holding back on a board or bike or whatever (which he didn't have at the time, sure). When the two grunts enter the ambush he sees it, sets up a position and starts sniping. With the crappy rolls we had the enemies probably wouldn't have died faster, but they couldn't have shot and neutralized Mal in the same way. The others are tougher and wouldn't suffer quite as much from a hit like that, and anyway the mission wouldn't have to be cancelled.

If Mal had been attacked on his own the drone could swing around to support him, while the others try to drive back. This probably could have worked even without a second vehicle (Mal on foot, stealthed up), even though we joked about it at the time.
jeronimooo skrev:I think Donut's charge and going melee was a bad choice, he could ve equally well stayed in or around the car and started firing right away...
Considering that he's a decent melee fighter and the thugs preferred to shoot, it may have been a tactically sound option. Perhaps Mal could have stayed in the car and add medium cover to his stealthy armor bonus. Lot's of tactical second guessing here :)
nDervish skrev:Although none have come up yet, there will be situations such as interference/jamming and combat hackers that will mitigate the effectiveness of drones, possibly taking them out of the picture entirely or even turning them into a liability. So there is also an in-game reason for not just doing everything with a drone army, aside from how the other players might feel about it.
Yeah. It's another one of those things that we should think about before entering encounters, as we and the opposition grow in power. Are there counter measures, what type are they, can we do anything about them, can we work around them?

I can see why we would start doing missions in crappy places like this, but as we get better (both in and out of game) I'd prefer more civilized places. Fighting in (and between!) skyscrapers, on streets full of people etc. Of course it'd be cool to have mech and/or tank battles in the combat zones now and then, but that should be an exception. That's something we can tailor with the missions we take and how we do them, though, so to a large extent it's up to us as players. At least that's the direction I want to take with Almighty.

For him to actually show up in these hellzones without some very thick armor around him just doesn't make any sense. Unless it's a race, of course, that's another matter.
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Re: Interface Zero: Upgrade in Progress

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To walk away from a robbery without a fight or handing over your valuables, you need something that will change their goal from "take their money" to something else and Persuasion skill alone won't do that.
I am going to buy some intimidation when we level up so I can calmly tell them about the snipers we have on the roof and how Don Tagliatello will fuck their children to death with hot knifes if they hurt us. But even now I feel pretty confident that I could have had a chans to talke our way out of there without a fight. "We are protected by the mob, we are undercover cops and you are being filmed right now, We are a film crew and this is going straight out to half a million viewers. Are you sure you want to plaster your face all across the net?". It is more about lying than sweet talking :) And if I fuck up we still would have gotten time to get the drones into position.
Give it a few more weeks, and I'm sure we can arrange a proper TPK. :twisted:
I love TPK:s, I can`t wait :) But I am putting my money on Almighty surviving. Sure, we will have to jump a year forward so that he can get new drone money together but then he should be able to get a new team set up and then we can just continue the campaign.
Although none have come up yet, there will be situations such as interference/jamming and combat hackers that will mitigate the effectiveness of drones, possibly taking them out of the picture entirely or even turning them into a liability. So there is also an in-game reason for not just doing everything with a drone army, aside from how the other players might feel about it.
I am also looking forward to a zeek with mindreading powers showing up to taking me out of the picture :) "She is lying. They are sent here to steal your data. Oh, and she is a combat sim." 8)
Senast redigerad av God45 den ons 02 okt 2013, 14:43, redigerad totalt 1 gånger.
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Re: Interface Zero: Upgrade in Progress

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Man, I am imagining all the ways we can fuck our selfs in this setting. I am the master of getting myself and the group killed and Cyberpunk just gives us so many more fun ways to die :)
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Re: Interface Zero: Upgrade in Progress

Inlägg av bladerunner_35 »

God45 skrev:Man, I am imagining all the ways we can fuck our selfs in this setting. I am the master of getting myself and the group killed and Cyberpunk just gives us so many more fun ways to die :)
You're slipping again! Time to reign in the crazy, crazy.
"There is nothing else. Existence is random, has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it to long."

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.
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Re: Interface Zero: Upgrade in Progress

Inlägg av jeronimooo »

This is all speculation of course, but the scenario I imagine is Mal holding back on a board or bike or whatever (which he didn't have at the time, sure). When the two grunts enter the ambush he sees it, sets up a position and starts sniping. With the crappy rolls we had the enemies probably wouldn't have died faster, but they couldn't have shot and neutralized Mal in the same way. The others are tougher and wouldn't suffer quite as much from a hit like that, and anyway the mission wouldn't have to be cancelled.
With Mal being the one having to be protected and having to do the actual investigation, it somehow felt wrong to me (both mission and storywise) to let him go in on his own (especially as backup...) If that were the plan, there would almost be no reason to ''hire'' you guys in the first place then, and he could have gone in on his own from the start... I imagine that in other missions where he is not the ''main character'' his cautious side would very much so let him volunteer to hang back and give stealth sniper cover. I still think that what happened yesterday had very little to do with bad planning... We rolled bad across the board, and when we actually made decent intimidation rolls, Dave just rolled even higher so they ignored our attempts... About the others being tougher, I don't think I agree, Donut and your drone would go down easier...

Considering that he's a decent melee fighter and the thugs preferred to shoot, it may have been a tactically sound option. Perhaps Mal could have stayed in the car and add medium cover to his stealthy armor bonus. Lot's of tactical second guessing here :)
He is a decent melee fighter allright, but his baton just doesn't do the kind of damage his assault rifle can do... I don't know, maybe we should have spent more bennies on the shooting rolls as well, we can't change what happened anyways, all we can hope for is not to fail as epicly next thursday...
I love TPK:s, I can`t wait :) But I am putting my money on Almighty surviving. Sure, we will have to jump a year forward so that he can get new drone money together but then he should be able to get a new team set up and then we can just continue the campaign.
Maybe because he is sitting on his lazy arse somewhere in a bar? :P
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Re: Interface Zero: Upgrade in Progress

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jeronimooo skrev:I just noticed that you did not specify at all what we looted from the corpses...
You found 3 sticks scattered around, a ruined small brass bell, some ruined rags, a rotted leather whip, 6 broken and dry eggshells, a straw pallet, red painted writing on the wall in a dwarvish script that none of you can read, a birch brush, some small footprints in various spots, and 17 copper pieces.

I don't know why I've been reluctant to say it directly, but:

Cyberpunk is not, to my mind, a "go through their pockets and grab every scrap of lint" genre. If you read or watch pretty much anything other than RPGs, you're not going to see protagonists looting every random body they happen to run across. If the guy has a particularly cool signature weapon, they might grab it. If they knock out a guard to take his keys, then they'll definitely remember to grab the keys. But even in those cases, they just go for the one or two interesting items and leave all the common crap behind. They never strip the body in search of anything that they might be able to sell off for an extra microcredit.

The same is true of fantasy or pretty much anything else aside from a bare-bones survival setting, such as post-apocalyptic or zombie settings, for that matter. Outside of desperate situations, "loot the bodies" is nearly unique to gaming.

Specific to IZ, most weapons know who owns them and will refuse to work for anyone else (IZ1 p.110; based on those prices, a manual PIN or password is standard) until you can get them hacked to accept a new owner. Even after being hacked, the authorities are sure to have a registry of weapon owners, so identifying them as stolen would be pretty easy if a cop happened to take an interest in what you're carrying. Between these two things, there's basically no legal market whatsoever for stolen weapons and most criminals aren't that interested in guns they'll have to hack themselves.

And before you throw out, "But they're looted, not stolen!", let me remind you that an extra who takes a Wound (just like Mal, if that bullet had hit him a little harder) is Incapacitated, not necessarily dead. I just made the Vigor rolls for the eight gangers you guys dropped last night. Five of them were in good enough shape to survive. Two others were in the process of bleeding out and would have lived if they received prompt medical attention. So, then, did you murder those seven helpless men in cold blood so that you could "loot" their weapons instead of "stealing" them? Of course, the cops are going to call it a stolen weapon either way, regardless of whether the legitimate owner (who probably wasn't the ganger carrying it anyhow) is alive or dead.

If someone has something specific that's unique or valuable, then, by all means, shoot them in the head and take it. How else is Almighty supposed to get his first golemmech? ;) But manhandling corpses on the off chance that there might be something salable in their pockets? Routinely collecting bog-standard weapons covered in someone else's blood in hopes of getting an extra hundred credits (if you're lucky!) for it? I don't buy that any of your characters would do that, except maybe Ryder, since his day job doesn't pay enough to cover his bills. And I don't think he's nearly that desperate yet. But Mal? With Rich and a job as an Agent for a total income of 17,500 Cr/month? There's something seriously wrong with him if he's obsessed with molesting cadavers in hopes of finding a little extra pocket change.
Willard skrev: Are there counter measures, what type are they, can we do anything about them, can we work around them?
Oddly enough, that sort of thing doesn't seem to be explicitly mentioned in the rules that I can recall, but they would logically have to exist. Plus it seems like something that would need to be there to somewhat balance the power of being able to swarm in with a dozen drones and lay waste to everything.

I haven't really given it a lot of thought, but the obvious way of handling it would be with Hacking skill, as they try to crash your control channels and you try to keep them up. Other suggestions are welcome.
God45 skrev:Man, I am imagining all the ways we can fuck our selfs in this setting. I am the master of getting myself and the group killed and Cyberpunk just gives us so many more fun ways to die :)
Feel free to talk here about all your cool ideas on how you guys can die. :D
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Re: Interface Zero: Upgrade in Progress

Inlägg av God45 »

bladerunner_35 skrev:
God45 skrev:Man, I am imagining all the ways we can fuck our selfs in this setting. I am the master of getting myself and the group killed and Cyberpunk just gives us so many more fun ways to die :)
You're slipping again! Time to reign in the crazy, crazy.
Fever is heating up my brain to dangerous levels so don`t listen to me today :P
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Re: Interface Zero: Upgrade in Progress

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nDervish skrev:Specific to IZ, most weapons know who owns them and will refuse to work for anyone else (IZ1 p.110; based on those prices, a manual PIN or password is standard) until you can get them hacked to accept a new owner.
There is a biolock accessory that prevents others from using the weapon, and that's supposedly standard with law enforcement. I'm pretty sure none of us have it on our weapons, however, and I seriously doubt most common criminals will either. So all the weapons we've picked up so far we should be able to use. Even the locked stuff we could try to hack ourselves, or pay someone else a modest fee to try. There's got to be a big industry doing just that.
nDervish skrev:If someone has something specific that's unique or valuable, then, by all means, shoot them in the head and take it. How else is Almighty supposed to get his first golemmech? But manhandling corpses on the off chance that there might be something salable in their pockets? Routinely collecting bog-standard weapons covered in someone else's blood in hopes of getting an extra hundred credits (if you're lucky!) for it? I don't buy that any of your characters would do that, except maybe Ryder, since his day job doesn't pay enough to cover his bills.
This. Even if I actually do think we could use most weapons we find, Almighty certainly isn't going to stoop to that level for most things.

One thing I've been thinking about is using looted weapons for cheap drones and turrets. Since I'm trying to avoid building and running a drone army (because it's more violent than we want, and because it's boring for everyone else) I haven't pushed that yet, but it seems reasonable enough in principle.
nDervish skrev:And before you throw out, "But they're looted, not stolen!", let me remind you that an extra who takes a Wound (just like Mal, if that bullet had hit him a little harder) is Incapacitated, not necessarily dead.
Yeah, game morality is often strange. So you didn't just steal it, you actually murdered the previous owner? Well, in that case you're free to go!
nDervish skrev:Oddly enough, that sort of thing doesn't seem to be explicitly mentioned in the rules that I can recall, but they would logically have to exist. Plus it seems like something that would need to be there to somewhat balance the power of being able to swarm in with a dozen drones and lay waste to everything.

I haven't really given it a lot of thought, but the obvious way of handling it would be with Hacking skill, as they try to crash your control channels and you try to keep them up. Other suggestions are welcome.
Are you referring to the countermeasures, or to the counter countermeasures? :) I'm guessing both are very limited.

What I recall reading is that hacking drones is supposed to be really hard. They operate on another frequency or something, specifically designed to resist this sort of tampering. And if they do get through it's easy enough to just reset. Of course this doesn't cover signal jammers and what not, only actual hacking.
jeronimooo

Re: Interface Zero: Upgrade in Progress

Inlägg av jeronimooo »

Well Dave,

since none of us is carrying the app that identifies the material used to shoot on us, how else but looting are we supposed to know if one of them was carrying something worth our while, like a unique weapon of some sorts... and especially if those gangers weren't dead, it would make serious sense for us to disarm themeven if only to dump their weapons somewhere later... Besides, I imagine Mal might want to check them out for ID's to verify if they are who they claim they are (aka just normal gangers) or if they were thugs set to guard the crash-site and prevent any thorough investigation, more than checking for actual loot...

besides, it could still be a good idea to grab their grenades and ammo, maybe not for Mal and/or Almighty but definitely for the rest of the group, no? And if one or more of them happened to be wearing Chameleon cloaks, I wouldn't be surprised if those got picked up as a backup in case some copper confiscates Ryder's at some point...
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Re: Interface Zero: Upgrade in Progress

Inlägg av God45 »

I am kind of uneasy about the looting. There is the tracking, but more than that it seems really immoral. We really shouldn't steal from the dead if we are the good guys.

If we are captured or something we might steal a gun from a guard or something, but other than that I think it makes us look evil.
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Re: Interface Zero: Upgrade in Progress

Inlägg av bladerunner_35 »

I'll just chime in and say that

A) I don't want this to become the normal tiresome lootfest.

B) If for some reason "we" need to loot bodies we should be able to (I don't buy that there's isn't an illegal market for illegal/looted weapons).

C) If "we" start to loot bodies after every combat there should be consequences: biolocks with hi-ex, boobytraps, sought after weapons used in high profile killings, higher risk of being ambushed while looting etcetera. Not to punish "us" for looting, just realistic consequences.

Ryder won't put up with much looting. Both because of the risk and because of his morals.
"There is nothing else. Existence is random, has no pattern save what we imagine after staring at it to long."

The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.
jeronimooo

Re: Interface Zero: Upgrade in Progress

Inlägg av jeronimooo »

I have found Mal's picture :)

http://www.push-start.co.uk/wp-content/ ... ion-10.jpg

its an awesome game at that too
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