Interface Zero: Upgrade in Progress

[nDervish]

Ok, so I just add 1.000 cr to my monthly expenses and then I remove a zero from the medical expenses? Sounds good.

Pretty much, yeah. The one extra detail with that is that, if you decide on an extended hospital stay or if you need augments repaired, you have to pay in full up front for that part of it (which might require taking out a short-term loan at a ridiculous interest rate...) and then get reimbursed when the insurance company gets around to it, where "when they get around to it" will probably just mean "at the start of the second following session". (e.g., If you fix your augments in session 3, you'll get reimbursed at the start of session 5.)

Initial treatment cost (the 1/2/3/5k) is covered immediately by the insurance company.

Oh, by the way? can I make a deal with my zeek healer contact for free golden hour healing for the team if the team does missions for her when she needs it? I would like to role-play it out with the group but I just want to know if it is possible

As a Favor, I'm sure she'd let you have the last 10% free after insurance pays the other 90%, yeah. For now, that only applies to you, but, once you do a mission for her, it may also be available to anyone who has participated in one of her missions. (Or it may not, if there's someone she decides she doesn't like...)

[Willard]

The property insurance will probably only be used by Almighty. Mal might want in on it too because he's cautious, but for the rest of you it shouldn't make any difference. Medical insurance and that of cyberware could be more widespread, but doing without it is probably going to be just fine.

What keeps confusing me is the ammo rules, even though they're supposed to be simplified. I know Björn enjoys managing his inventory a lot, but I'd happily pay a thousand or so credits per month to not have to worry about it.

Overall I think the costs of living rules are neat in how they let you avoid a lot of micro management.

I like it!

[Willard]

This mission sounds pretty fun

Yeah, we could do that. I also REALLY want to do my contact job, though. Pretty much anything that woman tells Almighty he'll really want to do. Luckily this is something he'd actually be interested in doing anyway, and the pay is decent for the rest of you (you can have his cut).

Actually there's a bunch of things we could do, and I'm tempted to do serious multitasking through drones. The last three could probably be done simultaneously and remotely. Trying to resist it though.

[God45]

I also REALLY want to do my contact job, though.

Then I say we do that I have no real preferance, they all seem pretty fun

[God45]

[nDervish]

What keeps confusing me is the ammo rules, even though they're supposed to be simplified.

Which part? Buying ammo, using ammo, or both?

Overall I think the costs of living rules are neat in how they let you avoid a lot of micro management.

Agreed!

[Willard]

Which part? Buying ammo, using ammo, or both?

Mostly buying I guess. The tokens are easy enough to use when they're there in front of you, remembering how much each one cost and how many you used a couple of days ago is trickier.

[jeronimooo]

I think ammo is one of the only really tedious things to keep up with... I am thinking of buying a bulk stash and then just replacing whatever I use, and to have the replacing part sort of be automated by Dave...

[nDervish]

Which part? Buying ammo, using ammo, or both?

Mostly buying I guess. The tokens are easy enough to use when they're there in front of you, remembering how much each one cost and how many you used a couple of days ago is trickier.

I think ammo is one of the only really tedious things to keep up with...

Yeah, agreed. Buying ammo tokens is a bit of a pain because of the group size mismatch and it's easy to lose track of how many you've actually used.

So how about this:

1. Change the cost of ammo tokens to be equal to 50 shots, the same as the way they're listed in the equipment book.
2. In play, any ammo tokens which have been used can be resupplied for free whenever you return to home or a similar base of operations.
3. Between sessions, your monthly cost of living is increased by the cost of 5 shots per ammo token (1/10 of the original purchase price).

The initial purchase price (#1) reflects the cost of buying an initial stockpile of the ammo type, which you can resupply from at will (#2), and the ongoing monthly cost (#3) covers replacing what you've used.

For a practical example, let's say you've got an AAK-94 assault rifle with 60-round ammo drums and you want to be able to carry a spare drum to reload. 60 rounds equals a capacity of 3 ammo tokens and you want to be able to carry 2 drums at a time (one in the gun and one spare), so that's 6 tokens total. Standard rifle ammo is listed at 250/50, so each token costs 250 to initially buy, for a total of 1,500 up front and 150/month to keep yourself supplied in the future. For as long as the monthly resupply cost is paid, you can load up with 6 tokens of AAK ammo any time you walk out your door.

Does that work? It should make the costs easy to figure out and rolls resupplying into the monthly cost of living, so you don't have to worry about any long-term tracking of how many tokens you've used or remembering to replace them.

[bladerunner_35]

Wow Dave you lost me.

While I think I am one of the players with the highest tolerance for the administrative side of roleplaying it bears repeating that it is there to give us meaningful and interesting choices. No one wants to be an accountant in his spare time. I did almost get goosebumps when I read about the insurances but not so much because of the various options but because of the very real possibility of of having an armoured medevac land in the middle of one of our clusterfucks, laying down covering fire while heavy armoured medics rush out and whisk away a couple of the injured combatants - on both sides! Hilarous, cool and very cyberpunk!

When we're on a mission it should matter which ammo we've brought and how much. How much we have back home isn't nearly as interesting.

As Sebastian pleads I really think this is best handled through Life StyleTM.

I do not remeber exactly the break down of Lifestyles. I think they come in 5 or 6 levels.

Something like this:
1. Poor, barely gets by.
2. Doing ok but very little silver lining
3. Can afford a little extra but nothing outragous
4. Wealthy - don't need to fret the little stuff
5. Sick rich - the world is your oyster.

Why don't we (meaning you Dave) just keep every extra - insurance, ammo - at these same levels?

Each player get's a choice - if they want to dive down into the numbers they can. If they prefer to keep all the administrative stuff at arms length they automatically get whatever it is we're talking about at their level. The extra costs should be balanced out so that the player that's counting all his beans saves a little money while the player that prefers to not bother pays a little extra through raises in his montly expenses.

If they are poor they don't get insurance. If they are doing ok they get bronze and so on and so forth. Myabe the top tier is assumed to have insurance from the start.

Same with ammo. If they are at level 1 they need to buy it themselves. If they are at level 2 they are assumed to have one spare clip of standard ammo to each weapon. If they are at level 5 they can pick and choose whichever ammo and how many clips they want.

Something like that. If Dave feels it needs to come with an extra monthly expenditure he'll just add that to the players life style. Insurance would probably add. Ammo wouldn't.

We're almost doing this already but I think we could push it a little more and streamline the whole process much more without loosing anything really. There's plenty of moneysinks in the game as it is.

Essentially a poor character needs to think about every purchase. A rich character shouldn't have to bother about any of the little stuff, including insurances or ammo.

There's my two credits.

[Willard]

So how about this:
Change the cost of ammo tokens to be equal to 50 shots, the same as the way they're listed in the equipment book.
In play, any ammo tokens which have been used can be resupplied for free whenever you return to home or a similar base of operations.
Between sessions, your monthly cost of living is increased by the cost of 5 shots per ammo token (1/10 of the original purchase price).

My problem with that is the first point. The initial price is now 2.5 times the usual, and you still have to pay to replenish them. Probably a little less than otherwise, but still.

If they are poor they don't get insurance. If they are doing ok they get bronze and so on and so forth. Myabe the top tier is assumed to have insurance from the start.

Something akin to this could work. One could argue that varying levels of insurance, ammunition subscriptions and the like should already be included in the costs of living. It's not like they were carefully balanced before and that adding these mechanical consequences on top ruins that, at the moment they're just arbitrary money sinks.

For the record I've got a pretty good excel sheet that covers all my equipment, costs etc, and I don't mind using it. But it really seems like those costs of living are there for this sort of thing, or at least they're so close that they should be.

[bladerunner_35]

Something akin to this could work. The lifestyle levels are there and paid for already, but so far it's all fluff. One could argue that varying levels of insurance, ammunition subscriptions and the like should already be included in that. It's not like the wealth levels were carefully balanced before and that adding these mechanical consequences on top ruins that, at the moment they're just arbitrary money sinks.

Agreed.

[nDervish]

Wow Dave you lost me.

I wonder how much of that is that what I'm trying to describe is more complex than I think it is and how much is that I'm failing to explain it clearly. It seems pretty simple to me, but that could just be because I'm the one who came up with it and it only seems simple because it's compatible with my own personal quirks.

While I think I am one of the players with the highest tolerance for the administrative side of roleplaying it bears repeating that it is there to give us meaningful and interesting choices.

Agreed, which is a big part of why I'm not crazy about just saying "everything is a part of the default lifestyle expense."

While I don't think anyone wants it to devolve into "Want to carry as much extra-high-powered ammo as you can lift with another 20 ammo crates in the back of the truck? No problem - you have a Wealthy lifestyle, take all you want!", if ammo is completely free under lifestyle, you carry as much as you can and the best quality you can at all times. If health care is completely free under lifestyle, you always go to the best hospital in town. If property insurance is completely free under lifestyle, you always let your gear get shot to hell any time it might prove useful to allow it. There's no down-side to it, so those aren't even choices at all, much less interesting ones.

the very real possibility of of having an armoured medevac land in the middle of one of our clusterfucks, laying down covering fire while heavy armoured medics rush out and whisk away a couple of the injured combatants - on both sides! Hilarous, cool and very cyberpunk!

Yep!

When we're on a mission it should matter which ammo we've brought and how much. How much we have back home isn't nearly as interesting.

Agreed, which is exactly what I was trying to get at with the "replenishing ammo tokens" idea: just track what's on you and you have an effectively unlimited supply at home.

The extra costs should be balanced out so that the player that's counting all his beans saves a little money while the player that prefers to not bother pays a little extra through raises in his montly expenses.

I'm not seeing the difference between my "pay base lifestyle, plus weapons permit, plus insurance, plus ammo restocking as a single fixed monthly total cost" and your "pays a little extra through raises in his monthly expenses". The permit/insurance/restocking are "little extra... raises in his monthly expenses", they just look more complex because I'm talking about my ideas on how the amount of those increases should be calculated so that you guys can comment on my formulas.

(Well, OK, maybe they're not all that little either, but they actually are pretty good value for the money over the long run when compared to the alternatives.)

My problem with that is the first point. The initial price is now 2.5 times the usual, and you still have to pay to replenish them. Probably a little less than otherwise, but still.

I'd call it a lot less than otherwise. Once you've used and replenished a token 2.5 times, you're break-even compared to the original token pricing scheme. Continue re-using that token once per four months and you remain break-even. Use it more often than that and you come out ahead.

Say you buy 6 replenishing tokens (RT) at a cost equivalent to 15 of the original tokens (OT), we play out four runs per month, and you use an average of 4 tokens per session. Under OT, you would pay for 6 OT up front, plus another 16 OT per month. Under RT, you would pay for 6 RT (= 15 OT) up front and 0.6 RT (= 1.5 OT) per month. For the first month, you're already coming out ahead by the cost of 5.5 OT (6 OT initially + replacing 16 OT used = 22 OT vs 6.6 RT = 16.5 OT). After that, you're saving the cost equivalent to 14.5 OT every month. Plus you don't need to track how many tokens you have at home or how many you've used and need to replace.

If you still don't like the idea, then counter-proposals are more than welcome, as long as they create (preferably meaningful and interesting) choices.

So far, it seems like the only suggested counter-proposals lead directly to "get a certain level of lifestyle and you can have unlimited ammo of any type you want", which fails that criterion. The only reason not to buy the "infinite ammo lifestyle" is not being able to afford the 10k or 20k per month cost of living (depending on whether this kicks in at Wealthy or at Filthy Rich) and there will come a point when everyone will be able to afford that and it will be a no-brainer for everyone to get the "infinite ammo lifestyle". That might briefly present an interesting choice when you're approaching the brink of being able to afford the "infinite ammo lifestyle" and need to weigh it against other options, but, once you're past that point and can afford it, then there's only one sensible thing to do and the choice vanishes.

[bladerunner_35]

While I don't think anyone wants it to devolve into "Want to carry as much extra-high-powered ammo as you can lift with another 20 ammo crates in the back of the truck? No problem - you have a Wealthy lifestyle, take all you want!", if ammo is completely free under lifestyle, you carry as much as you can and the best quality you can at all times. If health care is completely free under lifestyle, you always go to the best hospital in town. If property insurance is completely free under lifestyle, you always let your gear get shot to hell any time it might prove useful to allow it. There's no down-side to it, so those aren't even choices at all, much less interesting ones.

With all due respect Dave, I think this may have more to do with your own playstyle or the playstyle you are used to from groups in your past.

I am confident this won't be a problem. Remember that the game system have other balancing mechanics. Mostly how we calculate encumbrance through Significant Items and the rock/paper/scissor (well sort of) style of ammunition.

How about we try for the easier and more streamlined option first and then go to safe measures if they are actually needed?

I'm not seeing the difference between my "pay base lifestyle, plus weapons permit, plus insurance, plus ammo restocking as a single fixed monthly total cost" and your "pays a little extra through raises in his monthly expenses". The permit/insurance/restocking are "little extra... raises in his monthly expenses", they just look more complex because I'm talking about my ideas on how the amount of those increases should be calculated so that you guys can comment on my formulas.

Again, with respect Dave. I don't think we're all that interested in the formulas. It will be more than fine if you just state "this costs this much". If there's an argument sure, discuss it and break it down but in general I trust you to come up with something balanced.

So far, it seems like the only suggested counter-proposals lead directly to "get a certain level of lifestyle and you can have unlimited ammo of any type you want", which fails that criterion. The only reason not to buy the "infinite ammo lifestyle" is not being able to afford the 10k or 20k per month cost of living (depending on whether this kicks in at Wealthy or at Filthy Rich) and there will come a point when everyone will be able to afford that and it will be a no-brainer for everyone to get the "infinite ammo lifestyle". That might briefly present an interesting choice when you're approaching the brink of being able to afford the "infinite ammo lifestyle" and need to weigh it against other options, but, once you're past that point and can afford it, then there's only one sensible thing to do and the choice vanishes.

Again, I think you're making this "unlimited ammo" into a bigger issue than it will be in practise.

Also, what happens if your worst case scenario comes true? Nothing much!

Look at the bigger picture. At that point the story will have moved on (through quite a few sessions and missions) and what we deem to be interesting choices will have changed. If we have become successful enough to all afford a Wealthy life style we've earned the right to not have to worry about ammo.

The real choice will still be about which gear - weapons, ammo and armour to bring to each mission.

[God45]

If health care is completely free under lifestyle, you always go to the best hospital in town.

I am actually really fine with hand waving away injuries between missions. It would never come up in a movie or tv-show. And it suck so much to go out in the field with wounds that we will never do it. So it is just cooler describing how you got fixed up than dealing with it. Dealing with it doesn`t add anything to the game really.

And really, we are making so little money from our jobs that realism is already out of the window. We lose money for every mission already.

Really I am thinking the same about cyber ware and gear. If it breaks during an op, it is a problem. But it will get fixed to the next mission/session/episode. We don`t get the money to buy replacements or fix or gear from the missions anyway, so worst case scenario is us having to wait several months to gain enouh money to go adventuring again.

[bladerunner_35]

If health care is completely free under lifestyle, you always go to the best hospital in town.

I am actually really fine with hand waving away injuries between missions. It would never come up in a movie or tv-show. And it suck so much to go out in the field with wounds that we will never do it. So it is just cooler describing how you got fixed up than dealing with it. Dealing with it doesn`t add anything to the game really.

And really, we are making so little money from our jobs that realism is already out of the window. We lose money for every mission already.

I like the added pressure that getting wounded will either be expensive (to heal up at a good hospital) or force us to miss missions/money or fight wounded.

It seems we need to hash this out face to face since there's a lot of difference of opinions and it's a bit difficult to get to a consensus through the forums.

[God45]

Oh, and on a totally separate point. How do we deal with new characters coming in after an old one have died? We keep our xp and gain new money right?

[God45]

I like the added pressure that getting wounded will either be expensive (to heal up at a good hospital) or force us to miss missions/money or fight wounded.

My problem with that is us not actually earning any money from doing missions until we are seasoned which is several sessions away.

It seems we need to hash this out face to face since there's a lot of difference of opinions and it's a bit difficult to get to a consensus through the forums.

Seems like an good idea.

[bladerunner_35]

I like the added pressure that getting wounded will either be expensive (to heal up at a good hospital) or force us to miss missions/money or fight wounded.

My problem with that is us not actually earning any money from doing missions until we are seasoned which is several sessions away.

Well, I think that's perfectly fine.

Maybe those of us that are in need of cash and don't have rich parents/organisation that support us just need to accept that fact and keep our bills low. To not buy the latest stuff or wait with upgrading our weapons and so forth.

If we become badly injured then we might need to take a loan. That will hopefully become another twist or hook that can add to the story we're creating.

We have started at the bottom and need to scrape by until we've made a name for ourself. If we want more money we need to take the dirtier missions with higher risks.

I like that.

[God45]

I like the added pressure that getting wounded will either be expensive (to heal up at a good hospital) or force us to miss missions/money or fight wounded.

My problem with that is us not actually earning any money from doing missions until we are seasoned which is several sessions away.

Well, I think that's perfectly fine.

Maybe those of us that are in need of cash and don't have rich parents/organisation that support us just need to accept that fact and keep our bills low. To not buy the latest stuff or wait with upgrading our weapons and so forth.

If we become badly injured then we might need to take a loan. That will hopefully become another twist or hook that can add to the story we're creating.

We have started at the bottom and need to scrape by until we've made a name for ourself. If we want more money we need to take the dirtier missions with higher risks.

I like that.

But it makes no sense to go on adventures! I will make more money from doing my day job than from risking getting shot. And even if everything goes right, I am losing money from every mission! It is not fun, it don`t makes us feel like mercenary's, it makes us feel like... I don`t know? We have no reason to do what we do.

And while we agreed on a level of grittiness, we decided not to play gutter punk. We decided to play characters that could be cool. And we are not being cool. We are seriously calculating our insurances! Counting the bullets, fine. But insurances?! No, that Is not why I game.

I am not asking for an overthrow of the entire camping. I am not asking for all the cool new stuff or even better equipment. I am asking for a chance to actually earn money from missions. To be a little cinematic with ´healing between sessions and not having to balance my characters cheek book! I do not want my character to take a loan. It is not fun.

Now, if narratively somebody want their character to take a loan as part of their storyline then I am fine with that. But giving it rules weight is not. And if I had known that we would actively be losing money for every mission I would not have made this character. I would have made one with filthy rich because that is what you need to survive.