Interface Zero: Upgrade in Progress

[jeronimooo]

re the names: whatever is easiest for you

re the weapons permit cost, that was more in answer to Carl as he was talking about the costs of it...

going trough the new equipment goodies myself

[jeronimooo]

I is not all that happy with new equipment...

at first glance they about halved all the armorvalues (at least for the ones I have used so far...)

also, the Ravenlocke Patrol armor is gone...

they made the tazer grenades ridiculously expensive as well...

there is no longer any light/medium/heavy distinction between pistols it seems
my Lawdog is gone :O (no ffing way!)

there no longer seems to be a difference between long rifles and assault rifles, as they are listed under ''rifles'' and there is no longer a description of my Tarantula even though there is a picture of it...

(will edit in more comments as I am browsing trough)

[nDervish]

I is not all that happy with new equipment...

at first glance they about halved all the armorvalues (at least for the ones I have used so far...)

Good to hear!

No, wait, let me explain... I don't mean it's good to hear that you're not happy with the new gear...

I was planning to save this until we got everyone together to talk about general campaign issues instead of bringing it up here, but the armor values in the previous equipment chapter create a very wide range of Toughness values which somewhat breaks the Savage Worlds damage rules. As I mentioned last Thursday, Bullseye (given a bunch of money) could easily load himself out with enough armor that the only way to even get him Shaken with a direct attack would be to hit him hard enough to one-shot Mal.

This is not, in my opinion, a good thing. And I suspect you'd agree, since you're the one I've been using as the example of the guy who would get one-shotted if people started carrying guns big enough to threaten Bullseye.

There are pretty much only two ways to resolve that:
1) Prohibit Bullseye from wearing heavy armor, which takes away his ability to fill his character concept of "big, tough guy".
2) Reduce armor values.

So I had already been thinking about reducing all armor values by half (except implanted armor) to bring them more in line with the armor values the system was designed for (a range of 1-3 armor points vs. the previous equipment chapter's 3-10 for primary armors, with another 1-3 of supplemental armor layered on top of that). Looking over the new equipment chapter's armor values, it looks like they've been compressed to a range of 1-6 primary and +1-2 supplemental and many are unchanged, which will at least improve this greatly, if not completely fix it.

Another thing that reducing armor values addresses is that my concept of cyberpunk is not "everyone constantly running around in ultra-heavy combat armor", it's much more mirrorshades and synthleather jackets (which might have ceramic armor inserts, but they're probably small/light enough to be discreet). I don't want to say "pink mohawks", because that's picked up its own meaning in the Shadowrun community, and it's not quite "style over substance" either, but cyberpunk protagonists should look stylish. Molly Millions or Hirohito Protagonist wouldn't be caught dead wearing the same chunky armor that no-name corp security goons dress up in to conceal their identities (and their ineptitude). Even in more military stuff like Ghost in the Shell, they break out armored vests for combat missions and don't even wear those unless they expect heavy action; offhand, I can't remember ever seeing anyone from Section 9 in full-body armor or a combat helmet.

That becomes a lot more achievable if the difference between a leather jacket and the heaviest available armor is 3 vs. 6 Armor (0.75 Wounds/hit) instead of 3 vs. 10 Armor (1.75 Wounds/hit).

[nDervish]

there is no longer a description of my Tarantula even though there is a picture of it...

There's a form (which I think should be public) at

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1NujQHJ ... Q/viewform

that you can use to report errors in the document, such as pictures of weapons which are missing from the text.

[Willard]

I don't recall anything about a career change for her, only the question of whether, as a race queen, she tends to associate with only one racer or not.

Well... When I made her a race queen my image was something like in Need For Speed, where I recall there being one "race queen" that started the whole thing. Not one for each racer. That feels more like "race princess" or whatever. Reading the actual road rage text it seems my preconception was wrong.

In any case she has far higher ambitions and about three occupations she wants to try. Having done this for a little over a year, found a place to stay, and a budding network, it's time to move onto a different stage. Not sure if it's media icon or info broker yet, but I'll update her character sheet when I've decided.

I thought I'd specifically said 4-P last night, but I may not have. Either way, I agree and what you're saying is what I intended last night.

You may have, I don't recall and wasn't thinking about it when I wrote my post.

about the licensing, the class P licenses should be payed by the employer anyways right?I mean it doesn't make sense for you to have to pay to be able to do your job, nor for your employer to provide you with the weapons but not the permits necessary to allow you to use them... Besides, the houserules states a recognised employer sponsorship anyways...

This could be the case, but doesn't have to be. The P already halves the cost, and sponsorships don't have to be all or nothing. If we're going down that route I could start saying that Englewood pays for all my drones, weapons etc and that I don't have to worry about any of that. While I think that could actually work and be fun, the way we seem to be playing it involves a lot more micro-management. It's not out of place for you to pay a small fee to be able to use the weapons they provide, and it's not high enough to actually matter. Not saying you have to, and Dave already seems to be on your side in this, just that it wouldn't be all that strange.

No, wait, let me explain...

I haven't read the new chapter yet, but will get to it right away. That said I'm inclined to agree with every part of your argument regarding armor values. Golemmechs are going to be the exception to that, but I don't think they're given much room in this chapter anyway (again, without having read it).

[jeronimooo]

There are pretty much only two ways to resolve that:
1) Prohibit Bullseye from wearing heavy armor, which takes away his ability to fill his character concept of "big, tough guy".
2) Reduce armor values.

so to prevent Bullseye from taking on to heavy armor so the bad guys won't take on heavier guns and make it easier for them to oneshot Mal, the answer is to just make it easier for them to oneshot Mal with their normal weapons? I am not sure if I follow the logic here...

besides that, I really strongly dislike being made (even) more squishy... I already have no defence against melee whatsoever, and now I get ''stripped'' of my half armor as well? I have no problems with a campaign being gritty, however I would like to see some survivability options in combat... I might just as well drop everything I have put in shooting and take on other skills as I don't see Mal walking in combat anymore anyways...

If these new armor values get used, the cautious Mal would never go anywhwere near a combat, let alone act as backup firepower what so ever... he'd go sit in the bar next to Almighty and just wait until Bullseye has done the heavy lifting... and whilst Almighty still could have some fun playing with his drones, doing nothing would just become quite the bore for Mal after a very short while... Yesterday I already felt it hard to play my ''agent'' and ''investigator'' part as I couldn't almost ask any questions as Paladin is the face and does the talking... now my ''ability'' to go into combat (and get back out alive) also seriously gets cut down... what role is left for Mal after all that?

[Willard]

There's nothing wrong with being squishy, you just need to know that you are and act accordingly. Sniping is a very viable role. Being in melee or short range is and should be a good way to get killed quickly, unless you're really made for that kind of combat. Mal and Almighty just aren't. Hell, most enemies aren't either. Bullseye excels there, and Ryder does alright. The rest of us need to realize it and stay the hell away.

About the investigation, as Dave kept saying last night that's about digging through databases of various kinds. Like a historian you work through WRITTEN sources. When asking people questions you use the streetwise skill, to notice things in the physical environment you use the notice skill.

[Willard]

So I like that he's consolidated the chapter, feels like there's a lot more stuff in there. The structure is perhaps a little better, but I'd have liked to see more summary tables and for them to be more prominent (not placed at the end of a section, if at all).

The T-APP stuff seems more clear, and more interesting, so I'll probably get a bunch of that. Don't get what the "AMS 1" is about though. The VCI rules changed slightly. I'm going to have a wicked bonus to driving

The AAK-96 is also missing, like the Tarantula, but there's no picture of that so it could be intended. Should we look over our equipment and adjust to the new chapter, or go along as before for a little longer?

Ooh, and spaceships! Even if they're VERY basic, and strangely(?) a lot cheaper than regular airplanes. And the financing is a bit of a mess.

[jeronimooo]

There is nothing wrong with being squishy, but considering what happened 2 weeks ago, I already felt quite squishy enough... To now get made even more squishy just feels all sorts of wrong... I took a specialisation in assault rifles because I did count on seeing some combat-participation when I made my character. Now it just feels like that gets made impossible...

regarding the T-APP stuff, I could be interested in a few things, 2 jump out though:
T-APP Caduceus + monthly subscription
T-APP FIREWALL 4th DIMENSION SECURITY

But if it is up to me, I'd stick to the chapter we were using up to today...

[Willard]

I understand Mal being upset as he realizes his armor is actually a lot worse than what he paid for. Those bloody salesmen...

The specialization in assault rifles seems odd since the setting doesn't seem to make a distinction between "rifle" and "assault rifle". I certainly took "rifle" and used it for "assault rifles", and you could do that too.

Even with an assault rifle it makes sense to maintain range. Short range for those about 24 inches, which it takes between 2 and 4 rounds for a regular guy to run, depending on how well he rolls. And that's without you moving backwards, which there are accessories/some weapons that let you do without penalties. With a scope you can double that range at no penalty. It's not a shotgun, so stay back and in cover (which we all keep forgetting).

Disregarding the fact that there aren't any regular rifles in this new version, they'll have even longer range. If you use your tarantula with a scope you can shoot at medium range without penalty, while the enemies return fire from their assault rifles at a -4 penalty from long range. Find cover and that penalty grows even more.

At that point they'll almost always choose to go for Bullseye, Ryder or Paladin who are much closer and easier to hit.

[Willard]

regarding the T-APP stuff, I could be interested in a few things, 2 jump out though:
T-APP Caduceus + monthly subscription
T-APP FIREWALL 4th DIMENSION SECURITY

For Mal I'm thinking: Estream, Firewall (whichever), Multitasker, Newslink and Range-finder. You can afford them all.

For Almighty it's: Estream, Firewall (4th dimension), Multitasker and Range-finder.

The Combat IFF and Teamlink might be worth considering for the whole group in a while, but we haven't used any of those rules yet.

[nDervish]

so to prevent Bullseye from taking on to heavy armor so the bad guys won't take on heavier guns and make it easier for them to oneshot Mal, the answer is to just make it easier for them to oneshot Mal with their normal weapons? I am not sure if I follow the logic here...

After subtracting Toughness (including Armor), 4 damage = 1 Wound.

If Character A's Toughness is 8 higher than Character B's, then any hit which has any effect at all on A (even just Shaken) is guaranteed to cause a minimum of 2 Wounds to B. If the enemy has weapons which are reasonably likely to Shake A, then those weapons are also just as likely to cause 2+ Wounds to B. I doubt that you really want to be facing weaponry that's capable of hitting you for 2 Wounds on a regular basis.

That's the logic.

While I certainly appreciate Mal being a bit gun-shy after having his leg nearly blown off, I think you may be forgetting that it was an extremely lucky shot, with multiple exploding dice on both the to-hit roll and the damage roll. A typical assault rifle firing single shots (like that ganger was) averages 9 damage on a basic hit. 9 damage is just barely enough to cause a Wound to Mal if he's standing around stark naked. If he has a single point of Armor on which doesn't get negated by AP, that average 9-point hit only leaves him Shaken. Even with the reduced Armor values, you've still got much better survivability against that class of weapon than you might think.

and now I get ''stripped'' of my half armor as well?

Keep in mind that your Toughness is unaffected by this and Toughness is better than Armor anyhow, since AP doesn't let attacks ignore it. The reduced Armor values aren't taking your resistance to damage down by half (from 7 to 4), they're reducing it by a quarter (from 12 to 9) against attacks with no AP. Against, say, a BK-616 with AP ammo (AP 6), your effective damage resistance is hardly affected at all, going from 6 to 5. Against anything with AP 7 or better, it's no difference at all - you're resisting with your Toughness of 5 and nothing else either way.

So it's not really a global nerf of half your ability to take a hit.

I have no problems with a campaign being gritty, however I would like to see some survivability options in combat...

In any modern combat environment, the primary survivability options are "fight dirty" and "don't get hit". If you take a bullet it should hurt. The way to stay alive isn't to armor yourself up and count on your ability to soak up fire, it's to use whatever tools are available - grenades, cover, maneuvering, suppressive fire, combat hacking... - to minimize the enemy's ability to shoot at you.

Yesterday I already felt it hard to play my ''agent'' and ''investigator'' part as I couldn't almost ask any questions as Paladin is the face and does the talking...

Paladin excels at Persuasion (making people like you) and Streetwise (getting information from people), but Mal's not bad at Streetwise either - his d8+2 isn't as good as her d6+4 to d6+8 (depending on who she's dealing with), but it's still a guaranteed basic success (unless you roll snake eyes) and a decent chance at a raise. And Mal's just as good no matter who he's talking to, even if they can't see or smell him, as opposed to Paladin who pretty much has to rely on her looks and pheromones.

When it comes to finding information online (Investigation) or locating evidence (Notice), Mal's way out in front of any of the other PCs. I didn't think about it at the time, but Mal would have been a better choice than Strawberry to do the background research on whether Zephyr Gear had been sold on the black market - his Investigation would have been at -2 for lacking an Underworld specialization, but the +2 for Investigator would have canceled that out, plus Mal gets a wild die and it wouldn't have cost anyone a favor to do the search.

Speaking of favors, I'd suggest that you try to use them more often, given that the next Advance you're looking forward to is Fixer and, aside from a higher-paying job, the only effect of the Fixer edge is that it lets you call in twice as many favors. If you don't get into the habit of calling in favors, it's going to be a wasted edge. (Yeah, yeah, a bit more money from the change of Occupation, but, with Rich, that's not particularly significant to you, IMO.)

Should we look over our equipment and adjust to the new chapter, or go along as before for a little longer?

I suppose it would probably be preferable to switch equipment over sooner rather than later. (And, of course, this is just as we finished getting everyone's equipment finalized, too...)

The specialization in assault rifles seems odd since the setting doesn't seem to make a distinction between "rifle" and "assault rifle". I certainly took "rifle" and used it for "assault rifles", and you could do that too.

Then we've been technically wrong. The skill specializations document lists "Assault Rifles" and "Long Rifles" as two separate specializations. I agree with you that it would make more sense for them to be the same, but the (current) rules disagree.

[Willard]

I suppose it would probably be preferable to switch equipment over sooner rather than later. (And, of course, this is just as we finished getting everyone's equipment finalized, too...)

Yeah... Working on it. Shouldn't be all that much.

Then we've been technically wrong. The skill specializations document lists "Assault Rifles" and "Long Rifles" as two separate specializations. I agree with you that it would make more sense for them to be the same, but the (current) rules disagree.

What I'm going on is the "Type (Rifle/Pistol/Submachine/Shotgun)" section in the chapter, and the fact that there really aren't many/any proper rifles listed.

[Willard]

So it turns out all the weapon accessories are missing in this version. The only thing I've been able to change on my list is a bunch of T-APPs and a downgrade from the AAK-96 to the more than twice as expensive BK-616, losing a couple of thousand credits and the +1 to damage.

[nDervish]

So it turns out all the weapon accessories are missing in this version. The only thing I've been able to change on my list is a bunch of T-APPs and a downgrade from the AAK-96 to the more than twice as expensive BK-616, losing a couple of thousand credits and the +1 to damage.

That sounds pretty bad... In that case, hold off on changing equipment over for the moment. I'll take a look through it myself and then ask the dev about whether this is complete or if that kind of stuff will be in a later supplement or whatever and we can figure out how to proceed based on that.

[Willard]

Balance-wise removing that particular weapon makes some sense, as it was both cheaper and flat out better than a bunch of other options. Not having the accessories is a bummer, however.

[nDervish]

OK, having flipped through the new equipment chapter, I think we can go ahead with updating equipment that's in both books. I spot-checked a few weapons to compare between the two versions and they seemed to be identical, so I'm comfortable with saying that anything which is missing from the new version can be bought from the old version with the old version's stats.

The one exception is, of course, armor, which has been substantially reworked in the new version. Ravenlocke Patrol Armor has been mentioned; comparing the old and new stats for similar armor types (primarily the Beachhead First Responder Armor and Private Dick Future Noir Wear), it looks like Ravenlocke Patrol Armor should be 4 Armor (Torso)/3 Armor (Arms and Legs)/50% for 1 Armor (Head), with all other attributes unchanged from the old version.

Since the new version is much better at assigning weights to everything, I'm going to arbitrarily assign a default weight of 1 lb (1/4 SI) to all weapon accessories, but that's subject to review for specific items where it doesn't make sense. e.g., A folding stock shouldn't add any weight, so that's 0 SI.

[Willard]

Okay, sure. I'm back with the AAK then.

So about the adventure ideas, I think we should post that too somewhere. Here's probably fine for now. Björn may go up in flames as he reads this, or he may not. I don't know . Either way:

First there's the case of the rogue bike AI that we have to bring back in/destroy utterly, also restoring harmony within the group. Then Paladin mentioned something about liberating a sim factory and causing rebellion in the streets. Almighty wants to seize that opportunity to drive the NAC and all their followers out of the city, so that the GLU can march in and make the Midwest whole again. Englewood's drones then take over as the primary force of security in the city, the world, and eventually space.

Don't know much about the intentions of Bullseye, Mal (beyond the AI), or Ryder. For now you can just keep paying those bills, I guess.

[Willard]

About this Thursday, Dave, are you still up for that? I guess we could try a session with only Mal and Almighty, see how it goes, and it certainly doesn't have to be a full length session. If so there's a bunch of those jobs that we could potentially do with our particular skillsets:

Demolishing the personal data center, Lockport gangers, endangered hybrids, and finally report & record.

The first two basically require that I have the heavier weapons and drones, while the last one sounds like good practice in maintaining distance from the target and not getting into unnecessary fights. Jeroen?

If a new paper somehow manages to get off the presses in time that might change some of the missions, but I wouldn't say that's necessary, and most jobs are likely to be the same anyway.

Or we could just wait 'til Monday, if you prefer.

[jeronimooo]

About this Thursday, Dave, are you still up for that? I guess we could try a session with only Mal and Almighty, see how it goes, and it certainly doesn't have to be a full length session. If so there's a bunch of those jobs that we could potentially do with our particular skillsets:

Demolishing the personal data center, Lockport gangers, endangered hybrids, and finally report & record.

The first two basically require that I have the heavier weapons and drones, while the last one sounds like good practice in maintaining distance from the target and not getting into unnecessary fights. Jeroen?

If a new paper somehow manages to get off the presses in time that might change some of the missions, but I wouldn't say that's necessary, and most jobs are likely to be the same anyway.

Or we could just wait 'til Monday, if you prefer.

I am certainly up for it, though I have some reservations about the missions you named;
- the datacenter demolishing, we have Ryder who has explosives... + making sure occupant is not harmed (melee knockout might be needed) might make this mission not entirely up our alley I guess
- the lockport gangers, if the lesson is meant to not be lethal that might prove hard as well
- the endangered hybrids seems more something up bullseye and Paladin's alley...

report and record seems more something up our alley, though I have to say that the last mission description has intrigued me: 2090-05-05: Destroyers of law, Evil in a gilded home. Light dispels shadow. 4,500 Cr. Contact Barbara Simon.
I'd at least want to contact that Barbara to find out some more...