Interface Zero: Upgrade in Progress

[jeronimooo]

Hey Dave, are we going to run with the reputation system at all? if we are, I might have extra reasons to dislike Paladins failing missions agenda...

And totally unrelated, is there any more info you are willing to give on the ''light dispels shadow'' mission? Mal's interest is severely spiked and he is calling to get to know what it is about... (I really don't want to not be able to do this one because we need to fix intraparty relations...)

[nDervish]

And there's also the point about escalation (made in one of the Batman movies): if we start get bigger guns so will the bad guys. The balance isn't really shifted, only the potential for carnage (PC's dying being part of that).

Yep, exactly. That's one of the major things I'd prefer to avoid.

We may not be playing as punky as intended, but so long as we're having fun, what's the problem?

If the arms race goes too far and we end up leveling entire neighborhoods every other session, that's a problem...

More seriously:

• Because it's not what we'd talked about in advance, it's not what I was expecting or planning for
• My personal preference is generally for somewhat-low-powered, with each character having one or two pieces of high-end gear to support their specialty, but not a full load-out of all top-end gear
• It limits game progression - if you're geared up to the point of being able to take on an entire corporate army by the time you reach Seasoned, what will be left for you to do when you're Veteran, Heroic, or Legendary?
• As I said earlier, if there's one single ability which the majority of the players feel the need to obtain as soon as humanly possible (and it's not a consciously campaign-defining ability, such as everyone taking Golemmech Training in a Bubblegum Crisis-themed campaign), then that strongly suggests that there is a problem. Maybe the problem is that Rich is overpowered. Maybe the problem is that rewards are too low and Rich is the obvious workaround. Maybe the problem is mismatched expectations (street-level vs "To the stars!"). Maybe the problem is something else entirely. But there most likely is a problem.
• I don't want to put words in Björn's mouth, but he seemed to be the biggest advocate of gritty street-level punkiness in the pre-game discussions and I suspect that his initial misgivings about the game which he wanted to discuss in person may have been largely related to the game's power creep almost immediately turning into a sprint. If I'm right about that, then this is likely to drive him out of the campaign.

[Willard]

If you have Stopwatch do that I'm confident the only way forwards is through killing Mal. If you ask nicely we'll help, but force won't get you anywhere. Stopwatch doesn't have that kind of power around these parts, and if they did there would be no way to repair relations.

Whether or not it comes to shooting within the group is up to all of us as individuals. Drawing your weapon is not a good way to achieve that, even if you feel that's your only way to have even a remote chance of success.

I'll comment on the money again, but have to go for now.

[nDervish]

But I think I will still say: No more taking Filthy Rich unless there have been actual in-game, at-the-table events to support it.

I have absolutely no intention of taking on filthy rich at the moment...

Just to be clear, that ruling was meant for everyone in general. It was not intended to be directed at you specifically.

from where I stand right now, next session starts with the rest of the group having been lifted out of their beds and taken to a Stopwatch holding cell,

I'm a bit surprised to hear that, given how heavily your report to Jayne in the Adventure Log was emphasizing the "it's not their fault, they didn't know what they were doing" angle.

are we going to run with the reputation system at all? if we are, I might have extra reasons to dislike Paladins failing missions agenda...

Personally, I would like to, but it definitely affects play with its "stylish" and "no style" bonuses/penalties, so I don't want to impose it unilaterally. It was one of the things I intended to talk about last Monday, which then got put off until next Monday since Björn couldn't be there.

And totally unrelated, is there any more info you are willing to give on the ''light dispels shadow'' mission? Mal's interest is severely spiked and he is calling to get to know what it is about...

You'll have to visit Barbara in person to get details of names and places, of course, but "My client has learned that one of the consultants they employ is being stalked by assassins. I've been asked to find someone who can identify and unmask them."

[God45]

from where I stand right now, next session starts with the rest of the group having been lifted out of their beds and taken to a Stopwatch holding cell, where they get the choice to help me get rid of the Zephyr or spend a very long while in a dark and rank cell in a black and off the books Stopwatch penal facility somewhere offplanet. That they get that choice at all they have me to thank for as Jayne is way less forgiving... (I think I will give her the Major vengefull hindrance).

No I don`t think so.

I mean, sure this can happen but then your character is dead. You asking us nice and showing us "The bike is evil, we must stop it!" works great. But if you get Paladin arrested she will kill you. She is the whitest of White hat characters I have played and she don`t want to kill anybody. But that won`t stand with her. So let`s not do it that way and you will avoid the full inter party war.

[Willard]

Personally, I would like to, but it definitely affects play with its "stylish" and "no style" bonuses/penalties, so I don't want to impose it unilaterally. It was one of the things I intended to talk about last Monday, which then got put off until next Monday since Björn couldn't be there.

I think it could be cool. Giving us an incentive to not just be stupid, but to be stylish too!

If the arms race goes too far and we end up leveling entire neighborhoods every other session, that's a problem...

Yeah, we decided against playing in San Francisco and don't want to turn Chicago into anything like that

My personal preference is generally for somewhat-low-powered, with each character having one or two pieces of high-end gear to support their specialty, but not a full load-out of all top-end gear
It limits game progression - if you're geared up to the point of being able to take on an entire corporate army by the time you reach Seasoned, what will be left for you to do when you're Veteran, Heroic, or Legendary?

I think this is one of those cases where it helps to be specific. What are you afraid we'll start pulling around? The basic loadout is armor, one main weapon and perhaps one support/spare weapon. We're not going to be able to carry or use much more than that. Maybe some grenades and spare ammo.

The top end of armor is the justified response or bulwark crowd control armor, at +6. Add a cape to that and you're at +8. Among the weapons the pulse laser rifle is king at 3d8 and RoF 5. I suppose those get nasty when you fire on full auto, or the dice explode, but they won't level any buildings. They cost 24.5k, which I think most of us could have afforded as starting gear.

(Sure, there are also missiles that do 5d10 and could be used to level buildings, but those are at 20k or so per shot.)

I don't want to put words in Björn's mouth, but he seemed to be the biggest advocate of gritty street-level punkiness in the pre-game discussions and I suspect that his initial misgivings about the game which he wanted to discuss in person may have been largely related to the game's power creep almost immediately turning into a sprint. If I'm right about that, then this is likely to drive him out of the campaign.

It's really a pity he hasn't been able to make it since the first session. Come on Björn, we all want to play with you!

About the power creep I'm pretty sure you're exaggerating. None of us has really bought or used anything else than what we started with. I may have more drones, but of those only the warhorse has the potential for real firepower, and that's as a response to us not having Ryder or other strong fighters available. If you really want me to I can have it and those weapons refunded.

Paladin getting rich only means he doesn't have to rely on successfully completing missions for other people to get by, it doesn't make him more powerful.

If anything the armor nerf makes us less powerful than when we started. Sure, there's more money around, but it hasn't made a difference yet, and I don't think it really will.

[jeronimooo]

from where I stand right now, next session starts with the rest of the group having been lifted out of their beds and taken to a Stopwatch holding cell,

I'm a bit surprised to hear that, given how heavily your report to Jayne in the Adventure Log was emphasizing the "it's not their fault, they didn't know what they were doing" angle.

from my adventure log:

I know you probably want to take my ’’associates’’ down for aiding and abetting a rogue AI, but I am sure that they have no idea what they did. I recommend taking them in for a debrief to find out the whereabouts of the bike, as well as making them sign an NDA so I can disclose them who I am and what I do. I am pretty sure I can convince them to help me take down that bike as well, that would save us the costs of flying in several strike teams as well… I do think we could use some back up though, and I will need to requisite some serious toys if you approve the mission. But I am confident we can get it done.

They'll still need to be debriefed and interrogated and I am quite sure they'd need to sign an NDA... Considering there was a strike team on the way and what the team would have done to them had they still been there, I consider this Stopwatch asking nicely... As far as Stopwatch goes, at the moment they are not only aiding and abetting a fugitive rogue AI, but also potentially harbouring it as well as obstructing the investigation... (not to mention they attacked an agent...)

are we going to run with the reputation system at all? if we are, I might have extra reasons to dislike Paladins failing missions agenda...

Personally, I would like to, but it definitely affects play with its "stylish" and "no style" bonuses/penalties, so I don't want to impose it unilaterally. It was one of the things I intended to talk about last Monday, which then got put off until next Monday since Björn couldn't be there.

It sure looks interesting to me as well... We'll need to discuss more then a few things on monday before we can get going I assume... how complicated do you intend to make the hunt for Zephyr?

And totally unrelated, is there any more info you are willing to give on the ''light dispels shadow'' mission? Mal's interest is severely spiked and he is calling to get to know what it is about...

You'll have to visit Barbara in person to get details of names and places, of course, but "My client has learned that one of the consultants they employ is being stalked by assassins. I've been asked to find someone who can identify and unmask them."

looks like a white hat mission to me, could be interesting and fun

[God45]

Paladin getting rich only means he doesn't have to rely on successfully completing missions for other people to get by, it doesn't make him more powerful.

Exactly. I am armed with knifes and syringes, I have less armour than last session, I have no superweapons or armour and I hate killing people. I am not exactly a cybernetic killing machine

I just hate having to deal with consecuenses such as bills, broken gear or conserving ammo


Jeronimooo, you need to think about the meta-game. We are all twisting things so that your character still can be a part of the group, that is what the entire next mission is about. If you get the Group arrested your character can not be a part of the group anymore. So don`t do it!

[jeronimooo]

think of the meta-game?
I am thinking of the meta game... You won't get arrested, merely taken in and interrogated... and you'll get a ''choice'' to right the ''wrong'' you did by attacking Mal and helping the mad AI escape... Had you thought of the metagame and just helped the sim escape and let Mal deal with the AI, we wouldn't be in this position in the first place... So think of the metagame yourself as well...

[nDervish]

My personal preference is generally for somewhat-low-powered, with each character having one or two pieces of high-end gear to support their specialty, but not a full load-out of all top-end gear
It limits game progression - if you're geared up to the point of being able to take on an entire corporate army by the time you reach Seasoned, what will be left for you to do when you're Veteran, Heroic, or Legendary?

I think this is one of those cases where it helps to be specific. What are you afraid we'll start pulling around? The basic loadout is armor, one main weapon and perhaps one support/spare weapon. We're not going to be able to carry or use much more than that. Maybe some grenades and spare ammo.

My concern isn't so much over any specific item, but rather "I can buy the absolute best of everything." It doesn't matter to me whether "the best" is a tiny pistol or a solar detonation trigger. If doesn't matter if there are three "the best"s and you have to choose which of the three to carry at any given point. It just doesn't seem right to me if, right out of the gate, you've got immediate access to better everything than what's carried by people who are better-trained, higher-ranked, and (should, in general, be) better-equipped than you.

If a bunch of Novice runners, who have been working the job boards for three weeks, are able to kit themselves out with Justified Response armor and laser rifles, then what are Veteran runners who have been doing it for years going to carry? (And, again, the stats of Justified Response and laser rifles don't enter into it. The point is "if you start at the top, how do you go up from there?")

Among the weapons the pulse laser rifle is king at 3d8 and RoF 5... They cost 24.5k, which I think most of us could have afforded as starting gear.

And I'd actually be perfectly fine with that, as it falls under the "one piece of character-defining high-end equipment" that I mentioned earlier. But if everyone has a ton of cash and everyone buys a laser rifle (even if they sometimes carry other weapons instead), then it becomes commonplace and boring rather than cool and unique. Even if only one person buys one, if they have enough money that buying a laser rifle doesn't mean they have to give up anything else, then it's still not character-defining in the way that it would be if you were spending over 80% of your life savings (i.e., 24.5k out of 30k starting funds) on it.

About the power creep I'm pretty sure you're exaggerating. None of us has really bought or used anything else than what we started with.

Fair point. I do have a bit of a tendency to exaggerate in an attempt to clarify my points more than is actually necessary.

how complicated do you intend to make the hunt for Zephyr?

How long do you guys want it to take?

If it's really not interesting to anyone other than as a way to patch things up between Mal and the others, it could probably be dealt with in a single session.

At the other extreme, I've already got enough ideas to easily turn it into 2-3 sessions, including both major assault and defense operations and, by the time we actually got around to playing those out, I'm sure new ideas would be coming in fast enough to turn it into the focus of several months of gaming.

If you get the Group arrested your character can not be a part of the group anymore. So don`t do it!

I'm sorely tempted to start off the next session with "You wake up in the middle of the night to find Mal tiptoeing into your room, carrying a large black bag which he appears to be about to put over your head."

Seriously, though, no. Not gonna happen. Stopwatch will not be kidnapping the other PCs unless Mal chooses to initiate and carry out the abductions personally.

[Willard]

Yeah, Jeroen, I'm totally with Sebastian on this. If Mal or Stopwatch tries anything like that, there is no chance whatsoever of him staying in the group. Sorry. No matter how right and vengeful he/you may feel. If you manage to convince Dave to have it go that way you need to have a backup character with you, because Mal will be either killed or banished.

I'm pretty sure the hard feelings will persist for quite a while, so don't try to pull a stunt like that again. It will end quickly and won't be pretty.

It also seems like you keep forgetting how weak Stopwatch's presence is in the city, as per Mal's background.

[Willard]

I think hunting VRZG for a session or two at the most would be appropriate at this point. The main reason is of course to offer Mal a way back in, and we all have plenty of other things we want to do, but on the other hand it is a pretty cool character idea and a pity to drop it without further notice. Maybe a recurring villain? We could use some of those.

It should also be noted that, by your description of AI's, it won't explode in power any/much more quickly than we do. It's a wild card, not a singularity (yet).

I see what you're saying about the equipment, and it seems like a natural problem in a setting without magic. Or perhaps the gear progression just hasn't been given enough thought. A system that gives you much more freedom to design weapons with various upgrades shouldn't be too hard to come up with, while providing potentially endless possibilites for advancement:

Say you start with a d4 in damage. For a certain amount of "points" you can increase the damage die type, number of dice, range, accuracy, add str to damage, reduce various penalties, rate of fire, adjust size, etc. Anything you can think of. You then have a formula that converts "points" to credits at an appropriate rate, so that each advance costs more than the last one.

That lets everyone describe and relate to their weapon, making them unique and cool. As you can upgrade them along so many lines and without real limits (modularity is the future), each time paying more and more, you get endless progression and an ever effective money sink. Of course some work would have to go into balancing the system, and a lot of tweaking would be involved, but I think something like that would be a lot more fun than any catalog.

[jeronimooo]

so how do you see this going down Carl? Mal will not be the one coming begging for assistance, especially not to the ''group'' that stood between him and his job, and knocked him out... that just won't work for me...

Mal had no choice whatsoever in how things played out... (even if he wouldn't have been called up by Jayne in mid action) So I was not the one ''pulling a stunt''

the rest of the group did have a choice... Sebastian could have been ok with liberating the sim only, and for bullseye nor almighty was their any hindrance or motivation that prevented them from siding with Mal...

and about those hard feelings, what hard feelings are you talking about? towards Mal or towards me? or Mal's hard feelings?

[Willard]

so how do you see this going down Carl? Mal will not be the one coming begging for assistance, especially not to the ''group'' that stood between him and his job, and knocked him out... that just won't work for me...

Yeah, I know it's hard to swallow. Suppose Jane yells at Mal for not having done his job (successfully) and tells him to figure it out and stop this thing however he can. After some recon and soul searching he realizes that he needs help and the only ones who knows in town is this gang. Sure it sucks that they started it and knocked him out, but dealing with that is a small price to pay for stopping a rogue AI.

and about those hard feelings, what hard feelings are you talking about? towards Mal or towards me? or Mal's hard feelings?

In game, so the group's feelings towards Mal and vice versa. Even if he didn't really have a choice in what he did, things like that really tear down confidence and feelings of trust.

Out of game there's no problem, at least on my end. We all know Mal had his reasons and can't blame you for following through with it, but also realize that if you keep insisting on things like that the character has no place in the group. Maybe Mal really is stubborn and can't/won't patch things up. That's fine, but then you need to make another character that blends in better. If you as a player insist on playing a character that doesn't work within the group then those feelings might start seeping out of the game too, but let's not make that happen.

[nDervish]

I think hunting VRZG for a session or two at the most would be appropriate at this point.

That was my general impression of where people were likely to be at. Anyone else want to weigh in on it?

A system that gives you much more freedom to design weapons with various upgrades shouldn't be too hard to come up with, while providing potentially endless possibilites for advancement:

You'd think it wouldn't be that difficult, wouldn't you? I spent a while last summer trying to do something of the sort and didn't get that far with it, although I was admittedly working on melee weapons (this was during the time we were playing Savage Marches, which was basically a fantasy game). Guns might be another matter.

Or maybe I should just grab another copy of 3G3 (I own a dead tree copy, but it's back in the US) and work out the formulas for converting its output to Savage Worlds stats. It might need some additions for IZ's future technology options, but it's a solid system that lives up to its name ("Guns! Guns! Guns!").

Say you start with a d4 in damage. For a certain amount of "points" you can increase the damage die type, number of dice, range, accuracy, add str to damage, reduce various penalties, rate of fire, adjust size, etc. Anything you can think of. You then have a formula that converts "points" to credits at an appropriate rate, so that each advance costs more than the last one.

The fan-created Raiders and Ruins supplement has something very much like that, without the intermediate "points" step (everything just has a price attached directly) but it would likely need tweaking, since R&R is a post-apocalyptic setting, and more options would need to be added. Prices would also need to be rescaled.

There's also Savage Armoury, but, aside from being primarily focused on medieval-era weaponry, it's also specifically designed to make everything balanced and overall equal, with price variation entering only as a relatively minor balancing factor. While it could be made to work, I don't personally feel that it's entirely appropriate in this case.

That lets everyone describe and relate to their weapon, making them unique and cool. As you can upgrade them along so many lines and without real limits (modularity is the future), each time paying more and more, you get endless progression and an ever effective money sink. Of course some work would have to go into balancing the system, and a lot of tweaking would be involved, but I think something like that would be a lot more fun than any catalog.

Completely agreed!

and about those hard feelings, what hard feelings are you talking about? towards Mal or towards me? or Mal's hard feelings?

CW's already replied clarifying what he meant, but I'd like to also add a couple things:

First, specific to this situation, a number of your posts regarding the showdown over what to do with Zephyrus come off sounding like you're upset with other members of the group in real life over the way things went down. Or maybe you aren't and you're simply trying as hard as you can to justify Mal's actions and make him "the good guy" in that situation. I honestly can't tell.

If you are upset in real life, then the only one you should be upset with is me. When I set up that situation, I failed to consider the position it would put Mal in if you met a sympathetic AI and then I gave the rest of the group an incentive to protect it on top of that. I shouldn't have put you in that situation, but I didn't realize what I was doing until it was much too late to do anything about it.

Second, as a more general point, causing player-to-player (as opposed to in-character) problems on the excuse that "I was only playing my character!" is a cop-out. It may be what your character would do, but the only reason he would do that is because you created him that way. As CW said, if your character isn't able to work with the rest of the group, then you need to either find a way for him to work with the group or make a new character.

[Willard]

The fan-created Raiders and Ruins supplement has something very much like that, without the intermediate "points" step (everything just has a price attached directly) but it would likely need tweaking, since R&R is a post-apocalyptic setting, and more options would need to be added. Prices would also need to be rescaled.

I'd like to see that.

I'm working on stripping down the system he used to make the guns in this version, but it'll probably only be a start. With some playing around we might be able to come up with a model to test and tweak further.

I'll return later tonight with some results.

There's also Savage Armoury, but, aside from being primarily focused on medieval-era weaponry, it's also specifically designed to make everything balanced and overall equal, with price variation entering only as a relatively minor balancing factor. While it could be made to work, I don't personally feel that it's entirely appropriate in this case.

I think the point is precisely to have them NOT be equal. The choices should be balanced through the cost mechanism, but there should be potential for extreme variations in quality.

[nDervish]

The fan-created Raiders and Ruins supplement has something very much like that, without the intermediate "points" step (everything just has a price attached directly) but it would likely need tweaking, since R&R is a post-apocalyptic setting, and more options would need to be added. Prices would also need to be rescaled.

I'd like to see that.

Check your email.

I'm working on stripping down the system he used to make the guns in this version,

Are you sure there even is a system in the first place? "Throw down some numbers that look about right, then maybe do some playtesting and tweak based on that" seems to be what most SW authors do...

Prior to my attempt at a weapons design system last summer, I asked around to see whether anyone has done a coherent weapon design system for SW other than Savage Armoury. The general response wasn't merely "nobody has done that", but rather a lot of people tended towards "that's too detailed and not FFF - it goes against the spirit of SW". I really didn't expect to get people telling me I shouldn't create a weapon design system!

[Willard]

Running a regression across most ranged weapons in the book, just finalizing the data now. Even if there wasn't a system this will give us something to go by. Almost done...

[Willard]

So I've got a working model for the price of weapons based on range, damage die type and number, bonus damage and rate of fire. Unfortunately the coefficients for AP, ammo capacity, weight and heavy all get the wrong signs.

log (price) = 2.79 + 0.03 * range + 1.41 * dice number + 0.15 * die type + 0.17 * bonus damage + 0.28 * ROF.

That's probably going to be a curiosity/reference when assigning points to the various features, rather than an actual model for pricing that we can use. But still.

[nDervish]

So I've got a working model for the price of weapons based on range, damage die type and number, bonus damage and rate of fire.

Nice!

Does it improve the approximation any if, instead of three separate terms for die size/number of dice/bonus you use a single "average damage" term? (Just asking because my thought was to work from average damage rather than the specific mechanics of how damage is rolled. Which may or may not be a good idea. )